Just a Little bit of Magic!

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Montyjack
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Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Montyjack » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:50 am

Hail!

Ok, I want to put forward some new rules about magic in CC based on what I've experienced in table top RP games and RPing in the sim.

From what I've experienced in CC RPs, someone casts a spell and it happens straight away and that's that. More often than not there is no defence against magic, and if you're on the receiving end you're doomed.

What I would like to see that for nearly every spell cast, it takes at least a full emote to do so. The spell is cast on the next emote, or at the very least at the end of the round rather than 'now'. This will give a player a chance to react to it. Do they dodge, evade, bitchslap etc.

Additionally, when casting this character should be highly vulnerable to attack. I've never played a table top rp where this is not the case. This should be clearly outlined in weaknesses that the character has little defences when casting spells. Again this will even the odds

Sometimes, spells and what have you come from objects and take different forms. Runes on swords etc. Obviously should my suggestion come into place, these will be unaffected.

I confess I'm not a fan of magic on superhero sims. I think it has no place in the universe, but I accept a lot of people do like it does feature strongly in both DC and Marvel comic universes.

I just feel that at the moment magic makes characters immune to any form of harm, and they can dish out spells that can simply do anything, from deflecting nuclear missiles to cooling down hot coffee.

Also, as more people catch on to the benefits of casting spells rather than being super strong, we'll have more magic based characters than any other type. The last thing we need is bondage clad Harry Potters and Hemoine Grangers running around saying 'expelliarmos' every other emote. Feel free to keep the bondage outfits though :)

But what do you think? Is this suggestion good, bad, fair, unfair. Please let me know.
"I can remember, standing by the wall. The guns, shot above our heads, and we kissed, as though nothing could fall. And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them forever and ever. Then we could be heroes just for one day."

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Chyleste
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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Chyleste » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:22 am

A few quick notes I will try to get more in depth with things a little later.

Magic must be defined. Magic is a source not the power itself

Most spells mimic other super powers and are treated as such--so therefore if a hero can fire a lightning bolt in one round then a magic user can too

Conjuring things--nothing can be created out of nothing. It must come from somewhere. If you conjure a stack of gold, that gold disappears from somewhere else.

I will add more and get involved more as others add their points

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Butterfly of Doom » Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:04 pm

Alicias magic in a fight is usually her hydro control. She has an item (atm a necklace) that does it and it is breakable, and stealable. The effects of both are documented on her sheet.
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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by brittany00a » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:19 pm

Magic has always been a part of superhero comics since the superhero came into being, the first superhero comic was Dr.occult the ghost dectective created in 1935 about a man who had supernatural and magical abilities. this character predates all others including superman who techincally was created in 1933 only dc shelve the character for five years and didn;t debue him till 1938. Dr. occult gives Dc the riens as for creation of t he superhero genre goes, thats right the character was created by Dc comics,which in those days was known as international comics press.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by brittany00a » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:21 pm

but i agree which the rp Idea on magic it;s how it is done at spell fire sim ,when it was a big deal ((thumbs up from me))

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by brittany00a » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:19 pm

i meant national publishing comics press not international comics press -my bad.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Melina Firehawk » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:55 pm

Here's my thoughts when it comes to magic:

1) A spell will require an incantation and/or series of gestures to be completed before the spell is cast (one turn for the gesture/incantation, and the next turn for it to be cast)
2) Spells can be channeled through magical items (i.e. runes, etc), but these will also require gestures and/or incantations for the spell to be cast
3) The more powerful the spell (i.e. to where nobody can defend against it) or the greater the number of people that will be impacted by it, the more turns that is required to prepare it (gestures/incantations) before it can be cast
4) During the process of casting a spell, the magic user is vulnerable to all attacks
5) Casting spells require a great deal of concentration. If that concentration is broken, the spell cannot be properly completed. They either have to start over, or try to complete it and risk the spell backfiring
6) Spells can backfire, irregardless of the loss of concentration, which can have unpredictable and unexpected results for the magic user and/or those targeted by the spell

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Chyleste » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:26 pm

Alright if we are going to keep all powers fair, if it takes a full post to cast a spell ( a fireball for example) and then the next post the fireball is shot, to be fair, a metahuman with fire powers would have to use two posts to shoot a fireball as well.

Magic is a source of power not the power itself. What is the difference between the Human Torch shooting a fireball or creating a flame cage around someone or Mandrake the Magician shooting a fireball or creating a flame cage?

What about someone like Thor? His power source is magic. Would Thor have to take two rounds to do something?

Magic is limited by requiring old school Dungeons and dragons verbal , somatic (gestures) and material components. Material components can be something to focus through, or some powder or other item, or an object the caster wears.

Magic must be defined as to what they can do. If an application comes in with just magic listed as the power, I always send it back telling them that it must be defined.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Melina Firehawk » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:57 am

Normal mutant or metahuman powers are different, as they are a natural occurrence. They don't normally require an incantation to be recited, or an elaborate series of gestures to be done in order for the power to be manifested and utilized. In essence, mutant/metahuman powers are like having a gun - point and shoot.

Thor is different because he is Asgardian. He naturally has all of the powers that he is shown to have while wielding Mjolnir, but the enchanted hammer is just a tool that he's said he relies on too often. Granted, the enchanted hammer has powers in its own right that it granted him, but Thor doesn't need the hammer in order to display powers like flight, lightning projection, etc. He can just do that even without Mjolnir in his possession.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Chyleste » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:04 am

I am not talking IC reasons. I am talking about treating all powers the same. What about people who are born as magical creatures? What is different from them compared to a mutant?

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Angelina Sinclair » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:08 am

This is how I view magic and powers as well:
-Nothing is instant no matter how fast it is
-Everything travels from point A to point B.


By having these two rules there can be ways to block powers and magic. There is always room for some kind reaction time. The attacks from powers and spells also take time too. If I had a mage who summoned chains from the floor around a heroine then there should be portals first opening up and then the chains. The portals being an indicating something is coming. Experienced characters would react to that moment and not after the chains are coming to wrap them up.


------
As for charge time it really depends on the spell casters. You got some that are very powerful and should be able to cast a fireball spell without a thought. What I would frown upon is any spell being an instant hit such as lightning. I know some players like to throw around lightning thinking no one can dodge it but there is such a thing as "lightning timers" in vs debates; characters capable of react to and dodge lightning.

I do agree that stronger spells, which the player needs to indicate what is a stronger spell for their character, should have a charge time. It helps build suspsense and go for a finish blow. In anime they got the DBZ characters who have their charge times, powering up. Some thing with spell users. If all your little spells help you get an opening for charging a spell across 2, 3 or even more rounds bonus for you cause that just emphasises the power of this spell. People with powers don't really get that option.

Yet despite spells being viewed as OP. There are characters who have pretty OP powers. Most of which are heroes, sadly. Then we got god characters running around who I'm sure are very OP. If you wish to fix the spell problem I'd say fix the power problem too along with it some how.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:35 am

Angelina Sinclair wrote:This is how I view magic and powers as well:
-Nothing is instant no matter how fast it is
-Everything travels from point A to point B.


By having these two rules there can be ways to block powers and magic. There is always room for some kind reaction time. The attacks from powers and spells also take time too. If I had a mage who summoned chains from the floor around a heroine then there should be portals first opening up and then the chains. The portals being an indicating something is coming. Experienced characters would react to that moment and not after the chains are coming to wrap them up.


------
As for charge time it really depends on the spell casters. You got some that are very powerful and should be able to cast a fireball spell without a thought. What I would frown upon is any spell being an instant hit such as lightning. I know some players like to throw around lightning thinking no one can dodge it but there is such a thing as "lightning timers" in vs debates; characters capable of react to and dodge lightning.

I do agree that stronger spells, which the player needs to indicate what is a stronger spell for their character, should have a charge time. It helps build suspsense and go for a finish blow. In anime they got the DBZ characters who have their charge times, powering up. Some thing with spell users. If all your little spells help you get an opening for charging a spell across 2, 3 or even more rounds bonus for you cause that just emphasises the power of this spell. People with powers don't really get that option.

Yet despite spells being viewed as OP. There are characters who have pretty OP powers. Most of which are heroes, sadly. Then we got god characters running around who I'm sure are very OP. If you wish to fix the spell problem I'd say fix the power problem too along with it some how.
90% of the RP in fighting etc is fine, with no problems, and people are RPing very fairly. Some general hints are below to improve that stat to 100%.

1. Spend time in the character card section and in the RP logs to get an idea of the pecking order (which for easy reference is: You < The Dirt < The worms inside of the dirt < Popo's stool < Kami < Then Popo). Seriously, if you don't know a character or their abilities, asking real quick in an IM for the character sheet or for "Hey, how powerful?" is really easy.

Captain Strong is an OP Hero (Actually, he's been more of a loose-canon, who has been equally likely to assault heroes as he has villains.) He still takes a post to bump his power-levels, and I emote him doing so. Occasionally, pacing dictates that I give him the strength and have him use it in a single post. This still comes down to common sense. His name is "Captain Strong", wears a cape, and has an S on his chest. You should know at a glance that he can hit stuff hard, and probably move fast.

2. Don't assume that the knowledge base of the player mirrors the knowledge base of the character. Like, if I don't know how to build a robot, my character doesn't. This is obviously false. Jack Kirby didn't know how to construct a space shuttle, didn't know how to form interdimensional gateways, or for that matter the sentient computer's that would activate them. Yet, Reed Richards can still do that shit, and the New Gods all have OP iPhones. It should be assumed that (for an easy example) Kira knows metallurgy even if Angelina doesn't. The character knows how their powers work, even if the player can't fully articulate a pseudo-sciencey explanation for them.

On the other hand, don't assume that just because YOU know a thing, that your character knows it too.

3. The easier it is for you to call something up, the more "basic" the attack is assumed to be. If you emote "Lobs a few fireballs", they're basic fireballs and easy to avoid. If you emote "Calls forth a raging inferno which burns as hot as the sun" and you don't take a post to charge that, you are an asshole.

4. (related to 3.) The more of something there are, the weaker each is. 50 Ninjas are easier to defeat than 2 or 3. (This is called the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu, and yes, it is real, and you can look it up.)

If you spam fireballs like Vegeta, they're basically going to sting a little if they hit. If you want to truly shoop your whoop, you must charge yo lazer. This is called "balance". It's best to not be too competitive, and have some understanding with the other person on what sort of outcome they're ok with. A stomp for one side, a grinded-out victory, a draw, etc. If you take on a character that can crush yours, and you aren't ok with that happening, you need to communicate this fact and agree on a way that you can escape with dignity intact.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Angelina Sinclair » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:53 am

Mr. Strong wrote:
90% of the RP in fighting etc is fine, with no problems, and people are RPing very fairly. Some general hints are below to improve that stat to 100%.

1. Spend time in the character card section and in the RP logs to get an idea of the pecking order (which for easy reference is: You < The Dirt < The worms inside of the dirt < Popo's stool < Kami < Then Popo). Seriously, if you don't know a character or their abilities, asking real quick in an IM for the character sheet or for "Hey, how powerful?" is really easy.

Captain Strong is an OP Hero (Actually, he's been more of a loose-canon, who has been equally likely to assault heroes as he has villains.) He still takes a post to bump his power-levels, and I emote him doing so. Occasionally, pacing dictates that I give him the strength and have him use it in a single post. This still comes down to common sense. His name is "Captain Strong", wears a cape, and has an S on his chest. You should know at a glance that he can hit stuff hard, and probably move fast.

2. Don't assume that the knowledge base of the player mirrors the knowledge base of the character. Like, if I don't know how to build a robot, my character doesn't. This is obviously false. Jack Kirby didn't know how to construct a space shuttle, didn't know how to form interdimensional gateways, or for that matter the sentient computer's that would activate them. Yet, Reed Richards can still do that shit, and the New Gods all have OP iPhones. It should be assumed that (for an easy example) Kira knows metallurgy even if Angelina doesn't. The character knows how their powers work, even if the player can't fully articulate a pseudo-sciencey explanation for them.

On the other hand, don't assume that just because YOU know a thing, that your character knows it too.

3. The easier it is for you to call something up, the more "basic" the attack is assumed to be. If you emote "Lobs a few fireballs", they're basic fireballs and easy to avoid. If you emote "Calls forth a raging inferno which burns as hot as the sun" and you don't take a post to charge that, you are an asshole.

4. (related to 3.) The more of something there are, the weaker each is. 50 Ninjas are easier to defeat than 2 or 3. (This is called the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu, and yes, it is real, and you can look it up.)

If you spam fireballs like Vegeta, they're basically going to sting a little if they hit. If you want to truly shoop your whoop, you must charge yo lazer. This is called "balance". It's best to not be too competitive, and have some understanding with the other person on what sort of outcome they're ok with. A stomp for one side, a grinded-out victory, a draw, etc. If you take on a character that can crush yours, and you aren't ok with that happening, you need to communicate this fact and agree on a way that you can escape with dignity intact.
I agree with you more or less just a few things. Not everyone puts thier card in the forums.

I have nothing wrong with OP characters, I have one myself and that was intentional. I wanted her to be at the top, hated and feared. There's no real character growth for her and I'm ok with that. She's suppose to be that villain heroes rally to take down. Gives people a goal to aim for each time.

My statement about heroes being OP is those beyond the admin crew who are dangerous and can give Kira a run for her money. The villains I've met are going to get scared out because of all the strong heroes they keep running into. If they give Kira trouble, they'll surely wipe out other villains. We got a short supply of them as is.

I know what Captain Strong is and I know what kind of RP I'll get out of him. What I don't expect is to see several other heroes with an "S" or being spin offs of other powerful Marvel/DC characters. I expect there to be variety and not people being too powerful or too weak. When I first made Kira I got into a fight in the streets and was able to battle 3-4 heroines at once because they were all... weak and I mean, really weak. Like Hitgirl from Kick-Ass could've beaten them 1v1 weak.

The other thing is folks don't want to "plan" things out either. They tend to prefer the spontaneous "Let's just do it and see what happens" attitude which results in these sharp mismatches in combat where one is just stomped. Yet at the same time you'll want the occasional easy win and not have to grind out, each and every battle. Sometimes that's just how it plays out depending on your powers. Someone like Strong or Kira should get the occasional easy win and not have to grind every battle to victory just because of what their powers do.

It's tough trying to figure this out to be honest. I wouldn't want to cheapen anyone but I don't want to cheapen my own characters either. I do agree with you on everything else though.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Chyleste » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:21 pm

I agree that very high powered spells should have some cast time but then so should all powers. I have not gotten single complaint about the magic users in the SIM. I have had a lot of complaints about other powers, especially invulnerability, superspeed , and psychic powers-mostly telepathy, mind control and stuff like that.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Montyjack » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:12 am

This is a good discussion. One of the reasons I brought up this debate is because when I've come up against magic shields and field and such like it just feels like they happen in the blink of an eye and you can't do much about them. And to emote something to avoid it in my head sounds like I'm godmodding. I'm not really fussed about magic lightening bolts and things, they can and should happen instantly just to keep the flow going.

To give you an example, if one of my forcefield wielding characters casts a forcefield that interacts with another player, I use the word 'try'. "Tries to cast a forcefield around 'such and such' " to give the other guy time to react, especially if it is in an adversarial RP. Now if I take out the word 'try' it's happened sucker, live with it! See what I mean?
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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Chyleste » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:14 am

Yes well that word "try" or "attempt" is the same with magic. It is not any different.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Mr. Strong » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:38 am

If the move is defensive, then it should just be done rather than tried. If you keep trying to block what they're trying to throw at you, then the entire RP will take place in a quantum state of uncertainty where you'll be emoting in an ever-increasingly large set of timelines... one where your opponent managed to block and one where they didn't, and on and on.

So the attacker determines what they try to do, the defender decides if it was successful. Admins are on-hand if someone is blocking and avoiding every-damn-thing to review the character cards and say "Yeah, excessive blocking. Start taking hits."

Of course the first step is, IM the other person. "I noticed you seem to be blocking absolutely everything I do. Is there a reason for that?... etc"

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Montyjack » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:54 am

I see what you're saying, but it is more to do with not feeling i can react cause the magic just happens, and not in a good way. In my head at least getting out of the way of a shield feels like godmodding
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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Brittainy Collins » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:02 pm

It depends on how you are getting out to of the way and if you did so within the realms of science and practical boundaries. There are a lot of OP metas who don't draw their power from somewhere... So if you are going to place rules and conditions upon, well then to be fair you need to be willing to accept the same boundaries and conditions upon you as a meta. Power is Power... whether its coming from the Easter Bunny or your drawing energy from the sun. You cannot simply state BAM all powerful meta whom you cannot touch! There will always be someone who has a more powerful meta. The question becomes where are you drawing your power from. Magic and Power are not exclusive of one another as both are drawn from energies... whether natural, physical, mystical, or psychological.
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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Montyjack » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:16 am

Chyleste wrote: Magic is a source of power not the power itself.
I think this is the crux of the issue for me. The way I RP it and most in the sim do from my experience, is that magic auto-hits, and technology can't resist it. So if someone conjures a mind spell, a techno-generated telepathy implant is useless against it. Similar scenario with missile weapons.

Is this wrong?
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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Chyleste » Fri Nov 27, 2015 8:13 am

Auto hits are god modding no matter what they are.

Now as for resistances that is a different story. Science traditionally is not good defense against magic but it is not an auto hit no matter what.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Mr. Strong » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:49 am

Magic in comics isn't an auto-hit. Hexes and curses can be, if they have a focal point for casting which you've been unwary enough to give them, but I consider cursing someone's character to require approval from that player, because it affects the way they play their character.

In comics generally, you THROW the spell at them and it hits or misses. That's generally agreed upon: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles ... t-1456461/

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Angelina Sinclair » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:57 am

Montyjack wrote:
Chyleste wrote: Magic is a source of power not the power itself.
I think this is the crux of the issue for me. The way I RP it and most in the sim do from my experience, is that magic auto-hits, and technology can't resist it. So if someone conjures a mind spell, a techno-generated telepathy implant is useless against it. Similar scenario with missile weapons.

Is this wrong?
I would think that despite thier origin (technology, magic, powers, ring, item, etc) powers that are the same, operate the same way. So if someone hits you with a mind spell and your techno implant has defense against mind powers then it should have the same defense against a mind spell.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Chyleste » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:05 am

It all depends on the character Angelina. Tech can resist but generally there is a schism between tech and magic, much like fire and ice. Tech does not HAVE to have a magic vulnerability but quite often it does. What matters is how your character is set up and their weaknesses.

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Re: Just a Little bit of Magic!

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:51 am

Chyleste wrote:It all depends on the character Angelina. Tech can resist but generally there is a schism between tech and magic, much like fire and ice. Tech does not HAVE to have a magic vulnerability but quite often it does. What matters is how your character is set up and their weaknesses.
I'd look at it like this: The Tech person resists because the spell is directed at subduing a human mind, not a machine. They'd have to have a spell that would control the machine part, as well. So the human part of the brain is going to feel the compulsion to obey the magician, but the machine part is going to follow it's directives and force the brain to resist.

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