Diced RP

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Dr Portal
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Diced RP

Post by Dr Portal » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:40 pm

I come from a tabletop background, having started playing AD&D when the first books came out in the early 80's. One thing I always liked about SL was your ability to immerse yourself in a story. I mean if you go into mouse-look you SEE what your character see's. A few years ago I was at a supers sim (SHiP before they moved to Mean Streets) and mentioned playing the old Marvel SuperHeroes game back in the day. One thing lead to another and we ended up trying it on SL. The system was relatively simple and we had a great time.
Later since I was running it I wanted a better ruleset then MSH (which had a number of problems) and eventually found ICONs, one of the best simple RPG's out there. I base my freeform characters on my ICONs write ups to preserve game balance.

My question is who would be interested in a Tabletop style event where you have character sheets and dice(HUDs). Rather then the usual "bang I shot you/no you missed" you let the dice and the numbers decide. I know a few of you will because I have your ICONs sheets already and chapters of adventures on file. But as for the rest of you, what do you think?

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mr. Strong » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:56 pm

That's always at people's discretion to involve dice in their RPs between each other, if everyone agrees. ((I loved Marvel Superheroes myself, btw.)
The events, though, are Free Form with moderation.

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Dr Portal
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Dr Portal » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:38 pm

when I get time I may run a side story using diced RP with interested players

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Waroop
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Waroop » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:49 pm

I mainly like to use dice to settle minor disagreements and if I'm narrating an event with a lot of moving parts so its more fair and unexpected when things go really wrong or really right. Otherwise it becomes too bogged down with rules and it separates dice-rollers from non ones.

Free form has always appealed to me more to be honest.

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Mai
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mai » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:12 am

I was on a World of Darkenss Sim once that used most of the pen and paper rules including dice rolls, I am curious of what you have in mind and I hope I will have the time to join you on your plan with a side story and see how it works!

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Re: Diced RP

Post by LillianVickson » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:58 am

I could give it a try, depending on the time it's done at.
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Melina Firehawk
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Melina Firehawk » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:23 am

I've never participated in a roleplay that involved dice rolls. They often came across seeming very complicated, not to mention difficult to understand what you needed to get for a certain action to take place, or even simply whether or not an action worked. Additionally, it seemed like the dice had to be rolled for everything including when to move, what direction to move, how fast to move, and even the most minute and incredulous little things that honestly shouldn't even require the roll of the dice.

Considering how Second Life is, I think using dice would complicate things needlessly. Sure, some of us may use HUDs for special effects, etc, but using those are always meant to give a visual aspect of the attempted attack and allow someone else a chance to see what we were trying to do as to give them a better idea on how to respond to it, and also to say if the attack worked or not. I like to believe that most people can be pretty fair when it comes to freeform roleplaying, such as this, and not dodge every single attack or say that the attack fails. I'm sure they wouldn't be happy if that happens to them also. Everyone has to take a hit sometime, even the most durable of characters.

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mr. Strong » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:35 am

As an admin who is called to weigh in on disputes and occasionally intervene to give people instruction, I can say that a lot of people cannot be fair. We do see some powergaming and then counter-powergaming. (Example: "Well, he/she shouldn't be able to avoid this, so I'm going to avoid that even though I shouldn't be able to, so it's fair". This is wrong btw. There's no "make up calls". If someone is not playing fair, you speak to them and try and come to an understanding)

Free form RP is collaborative storytelling, with maybe 20% "Verbal chessmatch". Some people do put achieving their character's goals (or just having their character shine) as the priority over telling the best story. (According to some, playing a 'strong' character, I'm not immune myself.) Dice CAN be an effective way of removing pride from the equation.

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Montyjack » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:09 am

Maybe of Dr Portal gets something up and running one of the admins should give this a try to see how it works in practice. I know Chyl is not a fan of dice, and I have my reservations about it. But until you try...
"I can remember, standing by the wall. The guns, shot above our heads, and we kissed, as though nothing could fall. And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them forever and ever. Then we could be heroes just for one day."

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Mai
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mai » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:26 am

Melina i used dices on a sim and it was not to complicated you simply tossed the dice by example before you kae your post, see the result and use it to adjust your emote. So you can emote hitting but not the result of the hit. the defender would also role and then rp if it was just armor or hit and how hard depending on the role.
Yeah it makes it more complex I agree but also gives some other chances. I am not saying it is a good thing or a bad but it is a way and i would like to see what she has in mind and testiing it cannot be a bad thing :)

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Melina Firehawk » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:35 pm

Mai, it's complicated if you have never roleplayed using dice or know what each dice roll would mean in terms of the results. I would be absolutely clueless, and with how I've asked for help with my confusion in some of the recent RPs and not getting assistance, I'm not sure I would get help that I would need to understand a dice system. I'm also afraid, with my luck, the dice roll always go against me and severely under power my character to where none of the attacks, etc hit or are successful, which wouldn't be fair to me if it happens ALL the time (which it likely would with my luck).

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Chyleste » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:18 pm

I am not a fan of dice or HUDs for this kind of thing. From my experience in running a lot of RP sims in SL, it only contributes to the mindset of being a combat game that everyone tries to "win". It turns the focus away from the actual story and emotes into just the fights. It tends to slow down everything quite often too. I believe that what is best for the story should decide what hits, who wins, etc. It would suck to have a major adversary that is supposed to be a big bad threat get beat easily because the big bad cannot win a die roll. (I have had that happen in D&D myself. The players confront a scary powerful necromancer who rolls five ones in a row ).

If a couple players want to play out their scene using dice that is entirely up to them. But I am against requiring dice or HUDs or anything like that for anything.

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mr. Strong » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:33 pm

Right, relying on dice takes away from the fact that it's collaborative storytelling. It says "Hey, it matters who wins, so we need a fair way to determine the winner".

By and large, it shouldn't matter to you who wins. It should be determined by the story and what serves it the best.

If that's the bad guy running off with tail-between-legs swearing vengeance... so be it. Maybe they'll come back with something even worse for the hero (they should, btw.)
If it's the good guy getting beat and having to retreat, or not being able to stop the bad guy getting away with the loot, the victim, the weapon, etc... So be it. Maybe he'll go back and train hard. Maybe he'll have a crisis-of-conscience and need to do some soul searching.
... as long as it's something you don't think your character could recover from at all, then let the bad stuff happen. If it's "Hey, this would totally ruin my character" then you should talk to the other person.

Basic stuff here.

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Mai
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mai » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:58 pm


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Dr Portal
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Dr Portal » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:13 pm

Having run diced RPG's in SL I know it can work. The main things you have to keep in mind especially if your tunning the event is to keep it simple. Easy rules, simple dice rolls without a great deal of math, and balanced characters. Freeform is great when everyone agree's on the outcome, which is why its great for erotic play. In the end everyone wants to get it on so there are seldom conflicts on how it gets there. Combat scenes however, where a desired result is not established ahead of time...well few people want to lose a fight, especially if the opponents are evenly matched. Its one thing when your playing Daredevil and Ultron shows up to kick your ass, and quite another when its Bullseye or a member of the Wrecking Crew.
Secondly you don't have to roll for everything. when I run I like to set target numbers. This way only the players have to roll anything. If the players kick my boss's ass too easily I can throw in some scene difficulties like crumbling floors or whatever to stretch the scene out to its proper length. If they're getting stomped because they can't roll crap that day then either they lose and go lick their wounds to fight another day or I offer them an advantageous situation that they can exploit to get the scene back on track.
The big difference is the numbers tell you if you hit or not, and how hard, rather then you guessing if that should have hurt you or not depending on if you didn't miss read the post, or just don't like that player today.
Even if you don't use the dice, numerical guidelines are handy in freeform. If I know I have an Agility of 6 (in ICONs) and the person shooting at me has a 8, I should get hit 3 outta 4 posts. However if my Damage Resistance is 6 and their blast is 5, I don't care.
You get the idea

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Montyjack » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:49 am

I think you both have good arguments Strong, Portal. Perhaps that's where we are going wrong with the events is that we don't collaborate enough. Maybe we should say from the outset how the event is going to go. So for example, if we need a character to escape for the story we should say this from the beginning? What do you guys think?
"I can remember, standing by the wall. The guns, shot above our heads, and we kissed, as though nothing could fall. And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them forever and ever. Then we could be heroes just for one day."

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Mai
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mai » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:15 am

I know how we do it in Larp when we do a duell where the fighter whant to make a good show and not concentrate on make hits or avoid hits.
rock scissors paper and the winner is set but no one knows besides thee two fighting so you still can bet on the fight.

I am not sure if we should spoil the putcome of a fight as honestly an Event mostly can go in many directions. If it is a PvP event people shall think of what they would like to happen with their own rolesand think of what they expect about the other roles and act accordingly. So attacks that could kill making them hard to dodge, not really a good idea. Main rule should be: do not break the other players toy (read role) and the one your fighting with is your partner not your enemy. Also everyone shall think what story can be made by loosing a single fight. A Rocky film will be very boriing if he wins all his fights and does not struggle and wins after 10 sec with KO or so. Bane breaking Batmans back, great story, Heroes going to jail happens :). Kinky stuff can happen but one word of wwisdom some people might whant to keep their seccret identety for their RP, so if a villain captures a hero may think of not just taking of the mask in a big announced event with all cameras on... You want to kill your enemy? What happend with all the deathtraps, impossible to escape, so you can leave them alone with them and do your evil bussiness right?

NPC driven Events are a bit different. You have a plan and try to work on making that real but you mostly will adjust on what the player do. If you want your NPC to escape you should always be ready to accept that the player by accident (mostly) or due smarteness (rarely :p ) keep the NPC from his escape. If they kill him thats a new storyline and consequences will follow, if they capture him, then the police will ahve something to do, the Asylum people will have something to do, generates RP and we all know that no one ever escaped from a prison in a comic...

Ok that was way of the topic sorry

Doc Portal I am curios what you have in mind and I will be happy to join to find out :)

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mr. Strong » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:28 am

Montyjack wrote:I think you both have good arguments Strong, Portal. Perhaps that's where we are going wrong with the events is that we don't collaborate enough. Maybe we should say from the outset how the event is going to go. So for example, if we need a character to escape for the story we should say this from the beginning? What do you guys think?
I think that whoever is running the event needs to set up a foolproof escape plan, or a plan that's not easily foiled by heroic intervention. If it's foiled fairly, then so be it.... have a foolproof escape plan. If it's being foiled by godmoding, a GM on either side should tell whoever is powergaming to knock it off, or declare their character knocked out for a round or two.

If I was told "XYZ is going to attack ABC today and will be escaping with the Magic Whatsis" I would not bother showing up. That level of pre-planning is counterproductive, because then it's really only one person writing the story.

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Cassielisabeth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:12 pm

Personally I feel dice and huds take away from the idea of freeform roleplay... it takes away the spontaneity and the surprise of what will or could be, not to mention Dice simply confuse me. I have played on RP sims with huds both fighting huds and those that control the roleplay. It leads to so much strain and tension over what one can or cannot do.

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mr. Strong » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:25 pm

If you were to play a game with Dice, with an intelligent Dungeon-Master, you wouldn't say a thing like that. Surprises lurk around every corner, and players have to deal with them.

It isn't confusing. You roll when you're told to roll.

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Cassielisabeth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:34 pm

maybe not for you... but it is for me...

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Montyjack » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:52 am

Mr. Strong wrote:
Montyjack wrote:I think you both have good arguments Strong, Portal. Perhaps that's where we are going wrong with the events is that we don't collaborate enough. Maybe we should say from the outset how the event is going to go. So for example, if we need a character to escape for the story we should say this from the beginning? What do you guys think?
I think that whoever is running the event needs to set up a foolproof escape plan, or a plan that's not easily foiled by heroic intervention. If it's foiled fairly, then so be it.... have a foolproof escape plan. If it's being foiled by godmoding, a GM on either side should tell whoever is powergaming to knock it off, or declare their character knocked out for a round or two.

If I was told "XYZ is going to attack ABC today and will be escaping with the Magic Whatsis" I would not bother showing up. That level of pre-planning is counterproductive, because then it's really only one person writing the story.
Fair enough
"I can remember, standing by the wall. The guns, shot above our heads, and we kissed, as though nothing could fall. And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them forever and ever. Then we could be heroes just for one day."

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Re: Diced RP

Post by Butterfly of Doom » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:28 am

Very few times should such be planned..when its for story it can be good. Don't overused preplanned ending.
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Mr. Strong » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:41 am

Cassielisabeth wrote:maybe not for you... but it is for me...
Maybe you'll understand better if you look at an example gameplay. This is about 3 minutes long, and you should get a good idea of how it works.
https://vimeo.com/39114507

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Dr Portal
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Re: Diced RP

Post by Dr Portal » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:21 pm

I will say this about Diced RP, particularly combat. Since its treated as a game as much as a story the player characters are required to be much more balanced in power level. Often that is off putting to freeform RP enthusiasts. Since there are rules and guidelines you can't have a character that makes Goku from Dragonball Z look like a wimp and expect to play street level games next to Daredevil level characters. If you can level a city, where is the story in stopping a bank heist?
The events lately seem to be on the top end of the power level. Many of the characters have no business being there because the amount of power being tossed around makes them irrelevant. When the bad guys are bouncing or dodging anything Captain Strong (who I assume is the most powerful allowable character in the sim) then a Hawkman level character is at best a spectator or a meat distraction.
Diced games force the players in a story to be somewhat even. It can very alot, but if someone is too strong, their character sheet quickly shows it. If their too weak it shows as well. In either case the Game Master can take steps to temporarily boost a low power level character (usually with one time use gear) or give the OP character a handicap for that game/story.
The other option is of course to just tell inform a player that perhaps their character isn't suited for this story, and that they should bring another one thats more appropriate, or perhaps play a Game Master created character for this story. This is probably the only case I like Canon characters in RP's. Everyone has a good idea what Spiderman can do, or Thor.
You can even change up the character a little to get them off Canon, but as long as they have that reference, they can step into it pretty easily.

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