Celestial Laws

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LillianVickson
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Celestial Laws

Post by LillianVickson » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:17 am

  • All Freedoms from here and below are for the citizens of Celestial City only; metas and non-metas alike.


    1st Freedom -- The government shall make no laws to infringe on the people's right to freedom of speech or peaceful assembly.

    2nd Freedom -- The right to bear arms; including weapons capable of stopping metas; shall not be infringed upon.

    3rd Freedom -- All people have the right to a fair and speedy trial. The right to an attorney who will gather the evidence and witnesses need to prove themselves innocent.

    4th Freedom -- The right of the people to not have their property, belongings, money or papers seized without probable cause and warrant. Property shall be held temporarily until a verdict is made in a court of law. Nor shall private property be taken from the people for government use, without just compensation.

    5th Freedom -- No Soldier in time peace shall use a home without the consent of the Owner except in times of invasions by other universally forces. If damage is sustained during the temporary holding the Owner will be compensated.
    heese
    6th Freedom -- No person shall be subjected to the same offense/charges twice after a verdict has been reached by a judge and/or jury.

    7th Freedom -- In civil suits where the value in controversy exceeds the sums of a month's salary for either party that is working, the right to trial by jury is preserved. No case tried by jury can be re-examined in any court.

    8th Freedom -- Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed.

    9th Freedom -- The right to retain one's meta powers shall not be infringed upon; except temporarily for criminal punishment. The power(s) must never be permanently removed. The right to obtain new powers through any means shall not be infringed upon unless it risks the limb or life of others.

    10th Freedom -- The enumeration certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people.
Posting this from a NoteCard by [mention=]Angelina Sinclair[/mention] that I got in-world to set the tone for this Thread about what is legal in CC and what is not.
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LillianVickson
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by LillianVickson » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:33 am

Do we have a similar list of more mundane laws?

Is prostitution legal?
Is Insider trading legal?
(I could go on)

Should we assume that things which illegal in Modern Europe and the US are illegal in CC?
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Mr. Strong
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:40 am

Murder (and its lesser-included offenses such as assaults and attempted murder) is illegal. Theft is illegal. That's basically it.

Jezebel Weaver can pass law by fiat because she was elected to a position that had no inherent restrictions. Basically, the city defeated its totalitarian overlord, someone appointed themselves to fill that same position and held elections... but there was never a declaration that Shiva's rule was inherently invalid, and so the underlying system (autocracy) remains the "law of the land".

That might have changed under any other winner, besides Jezebel, who won with the largest share of the vote (39%, I believe), but I digress.

Essentially, those rights are the law, Murder and Theft are the only 'crimes', and Jezebel Weaver's word is law.

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Montyjack
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Montyjack » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:53 pm

Prostitution is legal
Insider Trading is a good question because would one city have a stock market? Nobody is really sure how the banking system works because it was established by Shiva. So it is like the banking systems of today's world in that respect.
"I can remember, standing by the wall. The guns, shot above our heads, and we kissed, as though nothing could fall. And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them forever and ever. Then we could be heroes just for one day."

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BluePhalkon
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by BluePhalkon » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:20 am

The bank gets robbed once a week. At this point, no soul would reasonably keep anything valuable in it and no one would work for it.

Lilith Quinzet
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Lilith Quinzet » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:18 am

Let's not forget property destruction, but as of now, I don't think there's anyone NOT guilty of that in this town. Also, a question: Should a person be judged by the crimes perpetrated by an alternate timeline version of herself?
Last edited by Lilith Quinzet on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:20 am

They "could" be tried, but they're not technically guilty.

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Lilith Quinzet » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:26 am

Mr. Strong wrote:They "could" be tried, but they're not technically guilty.
Oh?

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:32 am

Well, one has to intend to perform the act through deliberate malice or neglect, in order to be guilty. You need to be aware of time and place, and of what you're doing, or neglecting to do, (This is called Mens Rea). If you are not yourself, your body is controlled by an outside force or alternate personality, "You" are not guilty.... though you'd still need to convince a judge and jury of this fact.

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Lilith Quinzet » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:38 am

Oh, okay, that means if one commits crimes but fades away from existence and is replaced by that person's alternate timeline version, that alternate can't be feasible of punishment if they can proof they are literally not the same person, despite DNA may match and all that.

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:45 am

Right, they'd have to prove it because the story is so fantastic that a "reasonable person" wouldn't believe it. Therefore, they could be found guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Bridget Bathory is going to have a similarly hard time proving that the murder she committed was done by a demon that possessed her.

Fortunately, it's Celestial City... shit like this happens.

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Butterfly of Doom
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Butterfly of Doom » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:52 am

One thing we need clarified is.. lie detectors aren't admissible in court. Since things like telepathy exist, for any confessions we would have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt no mental manipulation as done - that's on the prosecution- and neither side should be able to use telepaths in court to convict or acquit.. frankly that leaves a human/sentient bias to whats found and essentially is not pure and unbiased. Finding fingerprints on a knife , however, is.

How do we handle the telepathy angle in bias and false confession?
"The nerve of... Ugh!"- Celeste
"Our enemy is never as evil as we imagine." - Katyusha
"Utterly' is my favorite way to destroy something." - Alecta
"Turn your wounds into wisdom" - Anna
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:03 am

1. Who says lie detectors aren't admissible in court in Celestial?
2. Who says they can't use telepaths to interrogate etc?

It'd be on you to prove that you were telepathically manipulated, or at least show that it's likely. "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" /= "Beyond a shadow of a doubt." Jurors aren't under any obligation to believe or give any credence to the defendant's testimony. They can find them believable, and acquit, or they can say "Sounds like bullshit" and find them guilty.

Of course, using someone who can mentally force someone to confess pry a confession out of the accused is unethical, and they could be forcing a false-confession. The police would be smart not to do it, because they don't want their convictions overturned. However, they /could/ use a telepath to force a person to give up evidence, the location of lairs, etc. That'd be dirty, but there's no rules against it. There's no Miranda Rights in those 10 Freedoms. Your right to an attorney might not be enough to keep them from making you tell the cops where all the evidence against you is.

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Lilith Quinzet » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:13 am

Well, in Elizabeth they can use something else. Given it's technically an alternate version of her, she was exposed to different things. The blood samples they may had gotten from the walls of the reactor (it got some due to how it affected her) have chemicals different to those the actual Elizabeth has.

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Butterfly of Doom
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Butterfly of Doom » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:18 am

Mr. Strong wrote:1. Who says lie detectors aren't admissible in court in Celestial?
2. Who says they can't use telepaths to interrogate etc?

It'd be on you to prove that you were telepathically manipulated, or at least show that it's likely. "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" /= "Beyond a shadow of a doubt." Jurors aren't under any obligation to believe or give any credence to the defendant's testimony. They can find them believable, and acquit, or they can say "Sounds like bullshit" and find them guilty.

Of course, using someone who can mentally force someone to confess pry a confession out of the accused is unethical, and they could be forcing a false-confession. The police would be smart not to do it, because they don't want their convictions overturned. However, they /could/ use a telepath to force a person to give up evidence, the location of lairs, etc. That'd be dirty, but there's no rules against it. There's no Miranda Rights in those 10 Freedoms. Your right to an attorney might not be enough to keep them from making you tell the cops where all the evidence against you is.
except there is no overturning in cc. Once its decided..its done. Lie detectors have been proven to be completely inaccurate- why would the police waste time on them? All it takes is 2 minutes and showing the jury how wrong they are and..poof hour interrogation.. all the evidence from it..gone
"The nerve of... Ugh!"- Celeste
"Our enemy is never as evil as we imagine." - Katyusha
"Utterly' is my favorite way to destroy something." - Alecta
"Turn your wounds into wisdom" - Anna
"..." - Eventide

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:32 am

They aren't conclusive, but they are "evidence". They could seal a trial where there's already a lot of other circumstantial evidence. Relying on them alone would be foolish, but not every jurisdiction says that you can't ever mention the results of a test at trial.

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Butterfly of Doom
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Butterfly of Doom » Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:11 pm

Mr. Strong wrote:They aren't conclusive, but they are "evidence". They could seal a trial where there's already a lot of other circumstantial evidence. Relying on them alone would be foolish, but not every jurisdiction says that you can't ever mention the results of a test at trial.
true. but even in those that allow them..its flimsy
"The nerve of... Ugh!"- Celeste
"Our enemy is never as evil as we imagine." - Katyusha
"Utterly' is my favorite way to destroy something." - Alecta
"Turn your wounds into wisdom" - Anna
"..." - Eventide

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Chyleste
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Chyleste » Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:39 pm

Angelina is working on an official code of laws for the city. They should be posted very soon.

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:26 pm

Flimsy evidence is still evidence. If I say I saw you walking down the street 30mins before or after a murder took place there, it is flimsy evidence, but it is still evidence. The totality of the evidence taken together is what's considered when evaluating "reasonable doubt".

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Butterfly of Doom
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Butterfly of Doom » Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:51 pm

true
"The nerve of... Ugh!"- Celeste
"Our enemy is never as evil as we imagine." - Katyusha
"Utterly' is my favorite way to destroy something." - Alecta
"Turn your wounds into wisdom" - Anna
"..." - Eventide

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Montyjack
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Montyjack » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:40 pm

The question is of course what is the current state of the courts. Is it trial by jury or does the judge decide someone's fate as well as pass sentence? Under those ten laws, there is no mention of trial by jury. Just a quick trial. Interesting stuff.
"I can remember, standing by the wall. The guns, shot above our heads, and we kissed, as though nothing could fall. And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them forever and ever. Then we could be heroes just for one day."

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Mai
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mai » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:12 pm

If i may ask do we have a district attorney?

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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Mr. Strong » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:21 pm

I believe Monty plays him. We have others.

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Montyjack
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Montyjack » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:29 am

So far we have me, Bridget plays a lawyer, and DI has a DA as well but she might be a judge now. Mark Dingo plays a judge.
"I can remember, standing by the wall. The guns, shot above our heads, and we kissed, as though nothing could fall. And the shame was on the other side. Oh we can beat them forever and ever. Then we could be heroes just for one day."

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Hannah DuMont
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Re: Celestial Laws

Post by Hannah DuMont » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:49 am

AArctica's civilian identity is a lawyer also. SHe was promoted by Bridget before all the crazy stuff started.
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